We'll come back to Katherine in just a
moment. Sebastian Gawker, great to have
you with us. You are, of course, a
deputy assistant to President Trump and
the senior director for counterterrorism
at the National Security Council. Lots
going on at the moment, of course, in
relation to the peace process, the peace
talks uh in Ukraine. Donald Trump
suggests that your country will have uh
some role in guaranteeing Ukraine's
security if there is a ceasefire deal,
but it won't be US troops on the ground.
Um, what involvement might the US have
in those guarantees?
Well, it would be uh reckless of me to
give away any possible scenario right
now as we are so close to a potential uh
peace agreement on the ground in
Ukraine. Uh but the fact is clear, we
will not have that peace if it weren't
for the president's engagements this
Monday. Never before has a
commander-in-chief array six heads of
state, the secretary general of NATO,
the president of the EC here in the
White House to discuss such an event.
Um, it won't be article 5 guarantees as
per the Washington treaty because that
requires that the given country have
sovereign control over all of its
territory, which sadly of course Ukraine
does not. I think we'll probably see
something akin to the first meeting in
the Oval uh with Zalinski where there's
some kind of business partnership in
terms of trade, in terms of Americans on
the ground. Of course, there was in
terms of businesses, not troops, the
rare earth minerals deal that was so
central to the first phase of this. If
America is doing business in Ukraine,
that makes it safer than any other piece
of paper out of Brussels ever could. But
beyond that kind of possible scenario,
I'm not prepared to give further details
because that is exactly what's being
negotiated now behind closed doors.
>> Any deal that is agreed, if one is
agreed with Vladimir Putin, how can we
trust this man will keep his word and
would keep to that deal? Putin this
>> uh I think there's a great phrase from
the cold war from another amazing
American president uh the great Ronald
Reagan who helmed this country as
Margaret Thatcher was doing so
incredibly well in the UK and that is
trust but verify. We know who the
president of the Russian Federation is.
We know his background as a colonel in
the KGB. So words are one thing but
actual behavior is how Russia or Ukraine
will be measured. how any country is
measured. It's not just the statements
that come out of the president's office,
but facts on the ground.
>> So, if he does breach the agreement,
which I think you're agreeing is at
least a possibility given his track
record, what would the consequences for
for that be? Because it seems to me a
very very real risk if a deal is agreed.
>> Well, more of the same that we have
leveraged against Moscow in the last 3
years. though it has really been
isolated in terms of global trade uh in
terms of various sanction measures. Uh
we are the most powerful nation the
world has ever seen. It's not just about
bombs and bullets. It's also about the
economic and diplomatic pressure we can
bring to bear. So along with our allies
in the EU in NATO, um the sphere of
mobility for a Kremlin that renees on
any putitive agreement is going to be
very very small.
>> Does President Trump blame Ukraine for
this war? Because he told Fox News
yesterday, it's not a war that should
have started. You don't do that. You
don't take on a nation that's 10 times
your size. which seems to me to be
suggesting that what Ukraine should have
let itself be invaded and not responded.
>> No, that's a hackne talking point of the
gutter press. Uh we don't blame Ukraine
for being invaded. That's asinine.
That's moronic. That's imbecillic.
>> What did he mean? You don't take on a
nation that's 10 times your size. What
does that mean?
>> The the bottom line is the following.
When President Trump was the
commander-in-chief the first time
around, there were no new wars. We
didn't have Russia invading anyone. It's
interesting that Russia only arandized
its territory when Obama was in office
when Biden was in office. So what the
president is making very clear, which is
simply an empirical statement of fact,
the world is a safer place when he is
behind the resolute desk in the oval.
>> The point about you don't take on a
nation that's 10 times your size. I
mean, Ukraine didn't take on Russia.
Russia invaded unprovoked and Ukraine
sought to defend itself. So what does he
mean by don't take on a nation.
>> We're not casting expersions and we are
not blaming Kiev at all. So the fact is
when President
>> when President Trump
>> is the commander-in-chief, the world is
a safer place. We've seen it's hard to
keep up with the president and he is our
boss here in the White House. We've had
more than half a dozen peace treaties
since he entered office whether it's in
Africa, whether it's Armenia, Azabai.
So, let's just talk about the facts.
When when the left is in control,
>> the world is a powder cake and I'm not.
You can you can try and interrupt me
again and ask the question for a third
time. The bottom line the the bottom the
bottom line is everybody is safer. I
hear your point on that. It's a slightly
septum when I ask you which was just
what President Trump meant when he said
in relation to Ukraine, you don't do
that. You don't take on a nation that's
10 times your size. What does he think
Ukraine should have done differently in
this conflict?
>> I'm not going to talk about
hypotheticals because if he had been in
the White
>> No, no, no. If he had been in the White
House, if the Democrats hasn't stolen
the election the last time around,
that's not what I'm asking.
Stop now. Ben, you're answering your
question. I haven't asked you. You've
you've interrupted me six times because
you haven't answered my question. If you
don't if you don't like the answer, you
can terminate the interview. If you want
to actually let me speak. I I will tell
you.
>> What did Donald Trump mean? You don't do
10 times your size.
>> Ben, it never would have been invaded.
Period. End of story.
>> It's not what I asked, Mr. Gawker.
>> I don't care what you asked.
>> I'm giving you the truth. I'm giving you
No, because you're using an If you want
to ask him what he meant, try and get an
interview with him. I am your help with
that, Mr. I am. I'm happy to, but only
if you don't do the classic proarication
and interruption because we're not
interested in fake news. Okay,
>> let me let me just let me phrase no fake
news here. Let me phrase it slightly
different way.
>> Then I will I I I then I will end the
interview.
>> Let me just ask you a slight different
way then. Is it the view of the Trump
administration?
>> No, do do not ask me another way because
I think is it the view of the Trump
administration that Vladimir Putin was
wrong to invade Ukraine?
>> Don't don't be Mr. Not fake news. Really
simple question.
>> I'm not I'm not going to do this for the
seventh time.
>> Okay, different question. Was Vladimir
Putin wrong to invade Ukraine?
>> Of course. Absolutely.
>> But Donald Trump keeps saying, "Oh, it
was it's NATO. This it was Donald Trump
keeps to seems to keep suggesting that
ultimately it was Ukraine's fault that
>> he keeps seems to suggest that's just
not journalism.
>> This war was about NATO," he said at the
weekend. Was it? I thought it was about
Russian imperial. You just can't give it
up, can you? There is no person in the
world, nobody right now, not Vanderlaya,
no one,
>> not a prime minister, not any other
president who can stop the bloodshed.
And all you want to do is he seems to
say that
>> he hasn't stopped the bloodshed.
>> Ukrainian children are dying this week.
>> Okay. So, and you're going to fix it.
>> I'm not going to fix it. No one's going
to listen to me. I'm not the president
of the the I'm not the leader of the
free world. There's one person there's
one person who's going to stop it and
it's not you and it's not any any other
head of state in the world. It's the man
who's sitting in the White House. That's
it. And if you want to continue to do
silly gotcha questions seem to what does
he say question? Look, of course when
you when would you expect this war to
end, Mr. Gork? Well, if you listen if
you listen to what the premier of
Ukraine said less than 24 hours ago, it
could end very very soon. So, do you
want to cast dispersions against
Zillinsky now?
>> No, not at all. I I just asked because
of course, President Trump said, "I will
end this war on day one. We're now on
day Well, you tell me we're well into
six months."
>> But that's the important thing, isn't
it? Right. It's for you to score points
against just asking when this bloody
brutal war will end.
>> We know what you're doing, Ben. You're
trying to score points because you don't
like the president.
>> Just asking you when the war in your
view of the senior director have a
crystal ball. Do you have a crystal
ball?
>> I'm not privy to these talks. I'm not
the deputy assistant to the president of
the United States of America.
>> Even if you were privy to them, can you
predict the future? I have yet to know a
human being who can predict the future.
>> Do you think the wars still in your in
your view? Do you think the war will
still be waging at the end of this year?
>> I pray to the Lord about that it's not.
And I think that we have the greatest
chance ever right now to stop the
bloodshed imminently.
>> Why do you think President Trump wasn't
able to end it on day one like he
promised?
>> Oh, you're a child. Stop it, Ben.
>> No, he made that promise to the American
people.
>> Stop it, Ben. Stop it, Ben. You really
don't care. You really don't care about
the suffering, do you? You just want to
score points. You just what you do. All
you can do is bring it back to he said
that. He said this. Why don't we talk
about the fact that only one person can
do what happened in Alaska? Only one
person can do what happened in the White
House on Monday. But no, you want to
score points,
Mr. It's my job. It's my job to hold
people in positions of power like you
and the Trump administration to account
and to compare what you said to what
you've done.
>> And I'm not saying President Trump
hasn't made progress. I'm simply saying
he promised one thing and right now that
promise hasn't been delivered. You can't
dispute that.
>> Uh I'm not here for you to score points
against the president. You can't dispute
the fact that he said he said more than
60 times I'll end the war on day one and
we're six months.
>> If you say if you bring this back one
more time, you have demonstrated that
you're a child and you're not actually
answer that. Why can't you answer it?
>> Because I'm not here to score points
against the man 80 million people chose
as a commander-in-chief. It's not my
job.
>> You may think it is your job, but it's
not.
>> Do you accept it's a it's an
unfulfilled, perhaps a broken promise at
this point in time? Uh, I'm not going to
answer your stupid childish questions.
>> All right, we'll leave it there. Mr.
Gawker, really appreciate your time.
Sebastian Gawker is the deputy assistant
to President Trump and senior director
for counterterrorism on the National
Security Council. President Trump said,
for what it's worth, more than 60 times,
I will end this war on day one and then
admitted in the Oval Office on Monday
that it had been far harder than he
thought. Quite why he thought it would
be as easy as he made it sound, I don't
know, and Mr. Gawker won't tell us, but
there we go. We do our best. Thank you
very much. Indeed, Sebastian Gorka.